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Interview: Tony Groves

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Churchill:

Yeah. All right. Great. Tony, thank you so much for being willing to talk to me and being interviewed. We’re doing this via Zoom because you’re over in New Zealand and I’m in Australia. Thank you for your time.

Churchill:

Randall passed on your name to me and said that you initially were a client of Churchill’s in 2010 when you first received your qualification through recognition of prior learning and you’ve just come back again 10 years later.

Tony:

Yeah. That’s right, yeah.

Churchill:

We thought that that would make a really good story. Do you want to start by just telling me what was going on for you in 2010.

Tony:

I got out of the Australian Defence Force in 2007 and I got picked up in the security industry, and I was pretty fortunate there where the military skills were recognized and it wasn’t in that particular role. There was no real requirement for civilian formal recognition. I could go in at entry level and go up as to a frontline manager, so to speak.

Churchill:

Okay. Just because people that don’t know you at all will be reading into this. How long were you in defence for?

Tony:

I was in the reserves for three years and then about eight years in the Australian regular army.

Churchill:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). All right. Okay. And in what rank were you at when you decided it was time to make a move?

Tony:

Just a private.

Churchill:

Yeah. Okay. All right.

Tony:

Just a private. Yeah. Yeah.

Churchill:

Okay.

Tony:

Yes. So-

Churchill:

So time came to transition, yeah?

Tony:

Yeah. I had no real worry getting a job within the security industry [inaudible 00:02:12], we were all former military so they understood our military qualifications as long as we had evidence of that. But what happened was the company restructured and they’ll letting go a heap of people, 80 of us, I think, [inaudible 00:02:29]. I was already looking for another job anyway because I’d gone as far as I could as a team leader. [inaudible 00:02:35] team leader there was nowhere else for me to go within that organization. I was looking elsewhere anyway at the time so it was a good time. And I was talking to a couple of other lads who they weren’t like me. I knew I was already looking for a job elsewhere. These guys were relying on and then all of a sudden their job was coming to an end and we’re talking about where to from here, where to next and who knows who.

Tony:

And one of the guys that was talking to us, he said… We were talking about civilian accreditation and the challenges of getting recognition and it just seemed like a pretty daunting process on its own just getting that transfer of skills to the civilian world. One of the guys said, there’s this group in Brisbane called Churchill Education. At the time, I think, it was trying to succeed [crosstalk 00:03:37] at the time-

Churchill:

Yeah. It was in the beginning. Yeah. That’s right.

Tony:

Yeah. And they specialize in former law enforcement and defence force people transitioning across and getting their skills recognized. You’ve already got it actually in one of your other stories that I’ve read online. I wasn’t really able to get a lot when I got out. There was no civilian equivalent courses for what I’d done in defence at that particular time. Sorry, the army didn’t have a transition across. And then there was [crosstalk 00:04:16]-

Churchill:

[crosstalk 00:04:17] as recognition of prior learning, doesn’t it?

Tony:

Yeah, they do. What I saw in there the story was exactly… What I encountered was, I think it was, say one and two or three in inventory operations. And that’s [crosstalk 00:04:30]-

Churchill:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I remember writing that case study. Yeah. What are you going to do with that in civilian. Yeah.

Tony:

Yeah. Yeah. And half the servants we didn’t know what inventory is anyway so it was just pointless. And I’d done a number of courses in the defence force that at that time they hadn’t mapped it across in any way to any particular course, that civilian qualification. I was a bit concerned about where to from here, what would I actually be able to get a hold of and map that across and so forth. And I’d looked at a couple other companies and it looked like I had to basically do all the work and then they just submitted it for you.

Tony:

And I didn’t have that time and just wasn’t really user friendly. Talking about Churchill and we all applied. It wasn’t just me. There was a whole group of us just applied for and I didn’t know what I could get. That was another benefit of going through Churchill. I didn’t know what I was entitled to so I just hand them everything that I could find and they told me what recognition I could get, which made the job a whole lot easier. And because I was taking that next step, I didn’t actually have a clear path forward. I didn’t know exactly where I was going. I knew I was staying within the security industry. I had a degree under my belt, but-

Churchill:

[crosstalk 00:05:57] question. Tony, what information did you need to provide in order to get an indication of what qualifications you would be eligible for?

Tony:

About memory, I’m sure I just submitted my service record. It showed all my courses that I’ve done and because there were military people or defence people working within Churchill, they knew exactly what went where so made the process really easy and-

Churchill:

[crosstalk 00:06:24] easy stuff. Yeah.

Tony:

Yeah. Really was and it just took all the stress out of it. The guy that was talking to us, he had already gone through the process so we knew that it was user friendly on our side because he’d already gone through it. So we all went through it, about half a dozen of us [crosstalk 00:06:41]-

Churchill:

[crosstalk 00:06:42] coming out of defence and then contemplating what’s it going to be like applying for work in the civilian world and what does that look like and how do you do it?

Tony:

Yeah. Yeah. It was challenging and there’s a lot of stability, structure and security within the defence force, and I got to really know the system and what I could and couldn’t do and how far I could go. There was endless opportunities within the defence force, but it was for me, I’d gone as far as I wanted to go and I wanted to pursue a new path, that’s out of defence. That’s what happened. And because of that uncertainty I didn’t know exactly where I was going to end up, I just knew that I was moving, changing to another job. Again, I was just looking at defence from a security job after defence. [inaudible 00:07:33] already looking in. I didn’t know exactly what that future looked like. What I did from there was I applied through Churchill just to see what sort of qualifications I could get. I knew that it was pretty competitive outside and I had to have everything I could possibly get to give myself that advantage. So [crosstalk 00:07:55] I applied, I got, look at here actually.

Tony:

I got cert four in training and assessment. (silence). I got diploma of, sorry, let me just… Yeah. Cert four in frontline management. Diploma of security and risk management and at the time there was a lot kind of partnership with another organization. I got two other cert, a diploma and another cert through Churchill. But there’s a partnership with another, I got a diploma of government security. Yeah.

Churchill:

Okay. Great. Fantastic.

Tony:

Yeah. So cert four in training and assessment. Diploma of government security, diploma of security and risk management and cert four in frontline management.

Churchill:

Fantastic. Did it feel like really good news when you heard that you were eligible for those qualifications?

Tony:

Yeah, it was because as a private getting out, it was really challenging and competitive. Can you hear me all right [inaudible 00:09:24], it’s just that there’s something that popped up on screen?

Churchill:

Yeah.

Tony:

Yeah. I was a little bit nervous and unsure on the likelihood of where I’d end up after that. And it’s interesting. After I got those qualifications, one of my mates said, hey, I know of a job that’s coming up as a risk management consultant, are you good to go? And I said yeah. And they asked me for my military background and I gave it and it matched everything. Pardon me. There was only six positions available and they got hundreds of applications and they said, all is we need now is a civilian certification. It’s a new company policy where you have to have a diploma in security and risk management or diploma in security. I got both of those. Yeah. So-

Churchill:

Did you already have those?

Tony:

And because I already had them, it was really… Yeah, because when I was in the other company and I knew that I was going elsewhere, I wanted to set myself up for success before I left rather than be a knee jerk reaction, and then somebody say, hey, you need this, and then try and find it and not know what I could or couldn’t get. I just wanted to get myself all the qualifications that I was entitled to, what eligible for and set myself up for that and move across. And then, when I did it they sent me the email saying, hey, you’re on the top of the list all is that we need is a civilian equivalent. And I said, yeah, I’ve got that. They needed a civilian training assessment quote and they also needed something to do with security and a diploma in security and or risk management.

Churchill:

[crosstalk 00:11:07].

Tony:

Yeah. Got the job. Yeah.

Churchill:

Great. Sorry, what was the position?

Tony:

That was as a risk management consultant.

Churchill:

Okay, great-

Tony:

Yeah.

Churchill:

And how long was [crosstalk 00:11:17]-

Tony:

I was right all along.

Churchill:

Yeah. That’s awesome. How long did you do that job for?

Tony:

I don’t recall off the top of my head. I was over there maybe, three [inaudible 00:11:35] four years. Let’s say three and a half years.

Churchill:

Right. Great. Then the next major step in your career was setting up HALO training, is that right?

Tony:

Well, yeah. After that I came back and [inaudible 00:11:53]. We just found that there were some gaps within training. There was a whole group of us that had come from the same backgrounds and we’re just talking about working in the civilian world. We found it quite challenging when you’re going through the induction training and so forth. It was also one of those stories said about being overqualified for what we did in defence force. I found the same thing. It was, we put so much [inaudible 00:12:21] into each thing that we did, but in the civilian sector you just do a couple of hours or a couple of days, maybe a week’s worth of training and then you’re considered qualified. Yeah. We saw a few [inaudible 00:12:41] the training was going to just tick and flick and we weren’t real happy with that level. Then we thought, oh we could come up with the training program that would really qualify people and weed out those who weren’t really up to scratch. So yeah, that was [crosstalk 00:12:59]-

Churchill:

Okay. What year did you [crosstalk 00:12:59] HALO training?

Tony:

That was 2015. Yeah. We started it up and it was more of a pilot program at the time. We thought we had something good but we were to see that everybody agreed or disagree. Yeah. We did that for probably another two years and then about 2007, eight we started just gaining a whole lot of momentum.

Churchill:

Randall sent me a bit of information, he says that at the moment you train between 60 and a hundred students a year?

Tony:

Yeah. That’s about [crosstalk 00:13:45]-

Churchill:

Fantastic. How do [crosstalk 00:13:43]. Is it face to face or is it online? How does [crosstalk 00:13:51]-

Tony:

It’s face to face. Yeah. Yeah.

Churchill:

Okay. All right.

Tony:

Yeah. We employ ex-defence people to come in and to conduct the training. I do a little bit as well, but yeah, there’s a crew of us that try and do.

Churchill:

Okay. Fantastic. So that’s your main gig these days running this business?

Tony:

Well, I kind of work in the background to be honest. As a co-founder I came up with the concept and so forth and I do a little bit here and there. But Maria, my wife, is the driving force.

Churchill:

[inaudible 00:14:27].

Tony:

Yeah.

Churchill:

Yeah. And then do you employ trainers to do the training?

Tony:

Yeah. We contract trainers in for the duration of the course. Yeah. We draw them from the military backgrounds and they’ve led teams overseas on operations. And we teach lessons that we learned on operations to just transfer and apply directly to business. Yeah.

Churchill:

Fantastic. Now we come back to 2020 and you’ve gotten back into Churchill again to get some new qualifications. I’m just looking down reading my notes here. You’ve just qualified for a graduate diploma of strategic leadership, is that right?

Tony:

Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Churchill:

Wow. That’s higher than a bachelor’s degree isn’t it, like graduate diploma levels?

Tony:

Yeah. Yeah.

Churchill:

Congratulations.

Tony:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Churchill:

Tell me why? What led you getting back in touch with Churchill to take a fresh look at your recognition of prior learning eligibility?

Tony:

Well, initially it was kind of uncertain future. We don’t know what the future’s going to bring and I’d rather err on the side of caution and preparedness and take a proactive approach and put myself in a good position for whatever comes down the path rather than take the reactive approach and then scramble at the last minute. I was looking at what I’ve done since 2010 and those diplomas got me to that level, but then when I got to that level, I learned all these new skills and there was no recognition for the training in the end and experience that we’ve received over there. I just thought, yep, the right thing to do is to get a civilian recognition, set myself up for success rather than take that reactive approach and how it served me well last time, 10 years ago. It’s the same thing now.

Churchill:

Yeah. It’s a great thing to do. Basically it’s being proactive rather than reactive, isn’t it? [crosstalk 00:16:45]-

Tony:

Yeah. That’s right.

Churchill:

There’s the possibility right now with a very uncertain world and a very uncertain [crosstalk 00:16:51] that there might be the tendency to think I better pull in spending, I better not be spending much at the moment because we don’t know what’s coming. Maybe I’m going to lose my job or whatever. But instead, more and more we’re seeing people say, “You know what, I’m going to invest in my business and put myself in the best position possible to take advantage of future opportunities,” and seems like a really smart way to go about things.

Tony:

Yeah. And that’s exactly what that conversation was in 2010 with the other guys. The company had a subsidiary company that we were a part of and that whole company was getting closed down. There was 80 something of us and yes, I asked my small group of friends who were all in the same positions. We’re just talking about it, we don’t know what the future brings, it was uncertain. And that was in 2010, for us personally it was uncertain. But what we did know is, let’s get the qualifications now and make ourselves competitive and have everything in place before we go looking, and then the same thing at 10 years later applies again. It’s a different context now, but the future’s uncertain and we just want to… For me personally, I just want to put myself in the right position. [crosstalk 00:18:22]-

Churchill:

[crosstalk 00:18:23]. As you said, things are very different but in a way there’s change and uncertainty. It’s a different flavor, it’s different facts, but still at a part it’s change and uncertainty and that’s life, isn’t it? And that’s business and that’s careers and nothing is ever forever, which is actually the title of a case study interview that I’ve just completed from last week and a very similar story to this, preparing for the future because you just never know and nothing is forever.

Tony:

Yeah, that’s right. [crosstalk 00:19:06]-

Churchill:

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:19:06]-

Tony:

It wasn’t just that. It was, I’ve been speaking to Randall for a few months now, maybe five months, about this. Then when the COVID-19 hit, I looked at things a little bit differently. Again, it’s already a competitive world. But since I’ve been here at home like everybody watching what’s happening, so many people were getting online qualifications, they were just upskilling with their time at home. In my opinion it looks like everybody’s getting more competitive.

Churchill:

Yeah. So you’re like, oh, I’ve got to get a graduate diploma.

Tony:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there’s other reasons for going for the graduate diploma as well. Cert four will get you the job. Diploma is looked upon favorably. Anything above that really gives that competitive edge. Yeah.

Churchill:

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I mean, you might as well maximize your eligibility in terms of recognition because it’s just a benchmark that then any future employer can understand, isn’t it? Rather than you having to describe your experience, they can just see it in your qualification, can’t they?

Tony:

Yeah, that’s right. And then there’s also other reasons behind that too. It was a sense of achievement with a graduate diploma as well. Because since 2010 so much has happened, but there was nothing really to show for it other than a job position. Yeah. And there were several reasons leading up to it, and then even once I made the decision that I’d like to go forward with it and COVID-19 come along, then I just saw that the world was just becoming even more competitive and even more uncertain. [crosstalk 00:21:05] for me-

Churchill:

That’s another valid point that I find comes up in almost all of these interviews that I do, that there’s one element to getting qualifications which is the practical. You’re applying for a job and they want you to have this certain qualification so it’s dotting the i’s crossing the t’s, there’s the practical side, but then there’s also the intrinsic self-belief side, isn’t there, which is equally important because if you don’t value yourself and have belief in yourself, then you’re not going to be able to put your best foot forward whether that be with applying for a job with an employer or setting up your own business or whatever your next step be or just continuing with your same business and having confidence in tendering and things like that. That energy of self-belief that you can bring to whatever your scenario, is really important as well. And to see your experience and skills validated in a nationally recognized qualification is very valuable as well, isn’t it?

Tony:

Yeah. It gives you that sense of self-worth as well. Yeah, I mean, I did a degree and it served me well also, but to be fair, this by far I find more valuable to me because it was based on my boots on the ground experience. Yeah, the theory is important. I don’t devalue the theory, but that boots on the ground experience and it wasn’t getting recognized. The theory was getting recognized but the actual getting on the ground wasn’t.

Churchill:

Yeah. I completely know what you’re talking about. Vocational education is, it seems like, we’ve gone through a time of really celebrating academic knowledge and training and not so much celebrating vocational education.

Tony:

Yeah. That’s right.

Churchill:

But the best way to really learn something is through doing, isn’t it?

Tony:

Yes. Yeah.

Churchill:

Yes, it’s important and theory needs to support learning but nothing replaces doing. And if you’ve learned a skill through actually doing it, you’re going to know that backwards. I mean, I did a bachelor degree too and honestly when I got to the end of it, couldn’t really remember that much of it. [Crosstalk 00:23:43] getting out in the workforce and actually doing job that then often I found that I would reflect back on my… because I did a commerce degree and, oh okay, now that makes sense, now I can see why that’s relevant. And I in a way wanted more. In retrospect, once I was in the workforce and applying the knowledge and to do it the other way around to do the work and learn the skills and have a practical application, and then have the skills and the knowledge and be able to then match them to a qualification, whether it be certificate four or a graduate diploma. You know that stuff inside out, don’t you? [crosstalk 00:24:26]-

Tony:

Yeah, that’s right-

Churchill:

Vocational education’s very valuable.

Tony:

And you look at… You knew for example if you failed something, you’d feel it, right?

Churchill:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tony:

I think when you fail something like a project on the ground, that’s a steep learning curve that nothing else comes close to.

Churchill:

That’s right. Because you’re letting [crosstalk 00:24:48], don’t you?

Tony:

Yeah, that’s exactly. I didn’t just let myself down. I probably should’ve gone out on Friday and Saturday and Sunday, and all that. But when you’re doing it boots on the ground and it affects other people’s lives, it’s a different driving force behind it and there’s different consequences and other people involved. Like I said, I hold these experiential base recognition and civilian recognition of a higher value than the actual academic side of it. It’s just not that long ago I saw a young professional, he’d been one or two years out of university and he was the most argumentative person and he was arguing with people who had had so much experience and they were actually right, it came out in the end. But this guy swore black and blue that these guys have just got accepted, they’re wrong. But he was the only one in the [inaudible 00:25:49]. Yeah. The academic side should support the career and not be what defines you. Yeah. Yeah.

Churchill:

Definitely. It’s a little bit of the school of hard knocks as well, isn’t it?

Tony:

Yeah.

Churchill:

When you’ve gone through that school you really learn the lessons and gather a bit of resilience and also a bit of humbleness. You realize that actually you’re not always right, and actually, other people often will know things that maybe you don’t know, and yes, so many benefits to the school of hard knocks. Tony, tell me about this latest round of applying for recognition of prior learning and the process of, I’m just looking down at my notes here again, achieving the graduate diploma of strategic [inaudible 00:00:26:41]. Talk me through that process. What documents did you need to provide? How was the process? Just talk to me a bit about how that all came [crosstalk 00:26:56]-

Tony:

Okay. [inaudible 00:26:58] because I’ve got a question for you shortly.

Churchill:

Sure.

Tony:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:27:04] that one. Yeah, again, I was just looking at [inaudible 00:27:09] uncertain future and I knew that I’d done a lot since 2010 and I didn’t know really where I stood and there was also that period of just where to next and I was looking for a bit of self-worth as well. And when I decided I’ll look and see what Churchill are up to and then I looked at their courses and asked for their RPO qualifications-

Churchill:

Qualifications, yeah?

Tony:

Yeah. And I looked at the usual cert fours and diplomas and then I come across this one and just went, “Oh, hey, that’s a little bit different.” It caught my attention just because it was a higher level. And I didn’t think that you could get something to that level. I didn’t think you could get anything over a diploma at Churchill. Just because I didn’t look to be honest. But-

Churchill:

Perfect.

Tony:

Yes. I saw that and then I started reading the information online about it and realized that I’d done pretty much everything that I read. Oh, yeah. Got experience in all that sort of stuff. I just reached out and said, hey I’m interested in this, what do you need from me? And Churchill had a lot of my stuff on hand from 2010 as well, which was helpful. It made it a little bit easier and then I was talking to Randall himself and he just said, yeah, just send me everything you can. He sent me a bit of a check [inaudible 00:28:46] documents that would map across and said see which of these that you can provide. Can you still hear me? You got me still?

Churchill:

Yeah.

Tony:

Yeah. Yes, he sent me a checklist. It was just, I think, it was a one or two pager. I just went through everything that I had on the computer and just [inaudible 00:29:07] yeah, I’ve got this, this, this had a couple of things in a few presentations that I scanned from presentations from the past and that was it. Actually only took me, it’s just a matter of a few hours to be honest. I’m finding everything and I send that across and they were just keeping me in the loop on if I needed more stuff and that was basically it.

Churchill:

Okay.

Tony:

I sent two emails with the documents. I think I sent the first one a few weeks ago and then I had a bit of time just last week so I put some more together or the week before. Put some more together and I thought, yeah, I’m pretty sure that I’ve satisfied everything. And then just asked if was there anything else that they needed. And then they got back to me and said, no, we’ve got it. It was really stress-free.

Churchill:

That’s great. Was it easy for you to find the bits of evidence that you needed to provide?

Tony:

Yeah. Well, it wasn’t difficult, a little bit time consuming, but it wasn’t difficult. I just had to look at each component and go, okay, what experience and recollect, yeah, I did a presentation with covering some of that stuff there. Went and looked for that. I found it, send it across. [inaudible 00:30:37]. Probably not the best answer you’re looking for, but [crosstalk 00:30:39]-

Churchill:

No, no, it’s good. It’s certainly the answer that I was fishing for because I mean, theoretically you could do your own RPA if you want to do, but you need to have a lot of knowledge to do that. It’s extremely a lot of administration, a lot of paperwork, time consuming, painful and also you don’t know for sure if you’re going to be eligible for something, so you’ve kind of got to get your way through. Definitely what Churchill provides is a streamline process, as streamlined as possible, and we’re always trying to look at ways to make it more smooth and more efficient. And it’s always good for us to check in with graduates and find out how was the process. Yeah. That’s good and good to know that [crosstalk 00:31:39] graduate diploma which is our highest level that we offer, that you’re saying that, yeah, sure, it was a little bit time consuming, but it was painless, that’s pretty awesome, isn’t it? Because-

Tony:

Yeah. I’ve looked at… No, sorry. You’re good.

Churchill:

Oh, I was just going to say, if you were going to study for a graduate diploma, that’s a lot of time and expense to go that way. And if you already have the knowledge to… It’s a good way to go.

Tony:

Well, I looked at it as well. Yeah, that’s right. That’s exactly what happened. I looked at it and it’s a lot more expensive to go through the training. And when I looked at everything, I could relate every component to competency that I’d already done. So couldn’t really justify spending one to two years, depending on how much time I put in, getting something that I’d already done. [crosstalk 00:32:50]. So much more expensive than this option, time consuming, but for the same outcome for something that I’ve already done. Yeah. While it’s on my mind. Your case study. What do you mean by a case study?

Churchill:

Okay, Tony, before I answer that question, I’m just mindful of the time and then I think that this might stop at 40 minutes. I’m going to disrupt yourself and stop the recording and then we can continue talking or I can call you back if needed. Let us finish off by asking you to just sort of go back to what you’ve already said. Given that things have even more uncertain than normal at the moment and that world economies are uncertain, jobs are uncertain, what would you say to friends and colleagues about going through the recognition in prior learnings to processing spending money on qualifications?

Tony:

First of all, it’s a stress free approach to getting the qualifications for the experiences and skills that we’ve already had. I’d recommend this over traditional methods just for the simple fact that we’ve already got the skills and experience, it’s stress free, it’s an easy transition say going from defence into the civilian world. Easy transition and it’s, yeah, that’s pretty much it, it’s just an easy transition from defence to the civilian world for the experience you’ve already got.

Churchill:

Yeah. Yeah. Great-

Tony:

I’ll highly recommend it-

Churchill:

It’s being proactive and preparing for opportunities rather than just being reactive to [crosstalk 00:34:55]-

Tony:

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And not just that. Going through Churchill, they get back to you really, really quickly. I’ve gone through other programs in the past and you might not hear from people for a week, two weeks, three weeks. Churchill, at the very least, the next day, whatever you’re looking for, there’s an email soon in your inbox waiting for you.

Churchill:

It’s great-

Tony:

It’s not just about the ease and efficiency… Well, it’s about the efficiency of Churchill [inaudible 00:35:24].

Churchill:

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Tony. I think this might stop in two minutes. I’m going to say thank you and formally goodbye and stop this video, and then we can keep on cutting in and I can answer that question for you. Tony, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your story and your thoughts and insights. It’s been really good to talk to you particularly considering that you’re a repeat client. So 2010 and then another decade I had a 2020 back again. I think that that’s also a good story of recognition of prior learning isn’t just a one time thing, isn’t it?

Tony:

Yeah.

Churchill:

Keep a uphill look and make sure you’re getting the recognition that your do because it’s twofold, isn’t it? It’s benchmarking your capabilities to future employers or clients, and it’s also just continuing with the internal validation and so hopefully… Thanks again Tony. I’m going to hit stop now.

Tony:

No worries.

Churchill:

Thanks.

END

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